Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

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NicolasLux
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Registriert: Dienstag 17. März 2020, 12:47

Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von NicolasLux »

Hi everyone!

My name is Nicolas, Im 31 yo and I live in Luxembourg.
I am doing photograpy since more than 3 years and started recently film photography (35mm).

I recently bought from ScanDig a Reflecta RPS 10M as my first ever scanner.
I am really surprised of the quantity of information and details this scanner can extract from a 35mm film! :D

However, I encountered some issue with some pictures, especially in the bright areas.
I was not able to find many information on internet about it. To what I understand, it might be called the "staircase effect". (please see the attached pictures).

Could you please help me regarding this issue? Is it a software issue or does it mean my scanner might be deffective?

Please find below some additional information about my settings, gear and process:
1. I have a PC with Windows 10
2. I used Silverfast SE 8.8 (bought on ScanDig)
3. I scanned the pictures in 5000 dpi and then applied basic adjustments (contrast; black; whites, curves;...) on Lightroom
4. I noted that my development on Lightroom enhance the issue, which makes sens as I tend to increase contrast
5. I tried to scan the image with Cyberview and have not noted any issue. Howerver and taking into account the few details and information obtained with this software compared to Silverfast, I do not want to directly conclude this is a sotware issue. I am not convinced the Cyberview test is really relevant based on the poor quality of the final scan and there I believe that the software might just not be good enough to catch the level of details required to observe this "staircase effect".

Thank you in advance for you help and all apologises if I did not post in the proper section!
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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

Hello Nicolas and welcome,

I guess you are talking about the regular mesh-like pattern in bright areas.

I have never seen such an effect before and I have no ready explanation. However, my first thought was that it may be an electronic issue. It is hard to imagine an optical effect causing this.

I would contact reflecta (service@reflecta.de) and send them these examples. However, you might be better off, if you could demonstrate the effect also with CyberView, if it really is a hardware issue. Had the bright areas been properly exposed with CyberView or were they perhaps overexposed thus hiding this effect? Try to reduce the exposure time (see page 25 in the manual) and re-scan the very same images you showed here.

Hermann-Josef
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

NicolasLux
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: Dienstag 17. März 2020, 12:47

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von NicolasLux »

Hi Josef!

First of all, many thanks for your quick reply and help!

I just sent an e-mail to Reflecta Contact and will keep you updated based on their answer.

In the meantime, I will perform scans with Cyberview the way you suggest it, even if I am not really convince it would show the same issue following the poor amount of details this software provides compared to Silverfast (but maybe I am wrong! ;) )
I will also keep you posted!

Many thanks again!

Martinus
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Registriert: Dienstag 26. März 2019, 11:37

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Martinus »

The mesh-like pattern looks like an interference pattern resulting from the successive application auf two slightly different digital resolutions. It is clearly a software effect, not a hardware effect.

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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

Martinus hat geschrieben:
Mittwoch 18. März 2020, 08:04
successive application auf two slightly different digital resolutions
How could such a Moire-effect be produced by software in both directions in structureless areas?
Martinus hat geschrieben:
Mittwoch 18. März 2020, 08:04
It is clearly a software effect
Then it has to occur in all similar applications of SF.

Hermann-Josef
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

Martinus
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Martinus »

Jossie hat geschrieben:
Mittwoch 18. März 2020, 09:33

How could such a Moire-effect be produced by software in both directions in structureless areas?
There are at least two possibilities: 1. The scanned image had a grid, or 2., it is the result of the successive use of two different applications, namely Silverfast and Lightroom. Intuitively, I would choose option 1.

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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

It should be easy to get an answer to this: the original scans (no saturation in the bright areas e.g. of the sky) with SF and CyberView, as suggested above.

@Nicolas: Did you change the image size in Lightroom by binning?

Hermann-Josef
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

NicolasLux
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: Dienstag 17. März 2020, 12:47

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von NicolasLux »

Hi everyone!

Thanks again for your help!
@Nicolas: Did you change the image size in Lightroom by binning?
Sorry, I do not understand what you mean by "binning".
But I did not change the image size in LR (except if it is done automatically during the export).
I would contact reflecta (service@reflecta.de) and send them these examples.
Please find below their answer. It seems this is due to a software issue.

I did not perform any new check with Cyber View.
But I scanned again the pictures and mainly reworked the contrast in Silverfast with the curve.
I finalized the image in LR / PS and I did not face this issue again.

I also tried to scan the images without all the Silverfast options and then reworked the pictures in LR / PS.
And this mesh-like pattern did not appear.

I have no idea what was wrond during my first attempt or which is the possible option / combination of options that would mess the scans up.


At least, I know my scanner is not detective and I found a way to avoid this issue.
I will rework most of my images in Silverfast before any exportation.

Thanks again for your help!
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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

Nicolas,

sounds like the problem has vanished? In your first post you mentioned "that my development on Lightroom enhance the issue" so I had concluded that the mesh was already present in the original SF-scan?

In general, in case of problems one should not mix various software packages (SilverFast, Lightroom ...) because this makes any diagnosis quite hard.

Best wishes

Hermann-Josef
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

NicolasLux
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Registriert: Dienstag 17. März 2020, 12:47

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von NicolasLux »

Hi Josef,
sounds like the problem has vanished?
I would say for now that I managed to scan and develop the pictures in a different way that do not raise the issue encountered. ;)
In your first post you mentioned "that my development on Lightroom enhance the issue" so I had concluded that the mesh was already present in the original SF-scan?
It was not really visible but yes, I would also say it was present on the original scan.

In general, in case of problems one should not mix various software packages (SilverFast, Lightroom ...) because this makes any diagnosis quite hard.
Yes, you are right! But in my original post, I only detailed the full process I performed.

Thanks again and I will keep you inform if I face this issue in the near future!

Ken50x
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mittwoch 31. Juli 2019, 14:20

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Ken50x »

Hello,
May I ask you what version of Silverfast you use? 8.8.Or-16 or the latest Or-18?
I have a Reflecta MF 5000 and with my latest update of Silverfast I get now banding problems.
I have downgraded to the Or-16 version.
I am executing now the tips I got from Scandig.

Kenneth
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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

Hello Kenneth,

you are talking about the vertical yellow stripes on the right hand side?

This is a different effect from those seen by Nicolas. I don't think this is a software effect. According to the examples in the service manual for my scanner this could have the following reasons:

a. Bad FFC cable
b. Poor contact between FFC contactors and FFC cable
c. Bad CCD
d. Bad PCBA-MAIN

FFC = flexible flatband cable, PCBA = Printed Circuit Board Assembly

What did ScanDig recommend?

Hermann-Josef
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

Ken50x
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mittwoch 31. Juli 2019, 14:20

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Ken50x »

Hello,
I know that this is another problem, but I thought that it was from updating to 8.8.Or18.
I scanned several months with SF 8.8 Or16 + Cyberview firmw 1.36 softw 5.16 + windows 10 and I had no problems.( Reflecta MF5000)
Then I stopped scanning for 5 months.
Last week I started again with the update from SF and I got the bandings.
I made contact with Silverfast and Scandig.
Answer Silverfast: Doubt that the update would be causing this,
I downgraded my Silverfast to 8.8 Or16 = same problem
Answer Scandig was more usefull:
1) Update firmware + software Cyberview : done, now I have firmware 1.36 + and softw 5.18.06 = no change
2) Different USB cable + different USB port on computer = no change
3) Interferences caused by other electronic devices or cables. The scanner is now about 50 cm away from any device and cable. No cellphone. = no change
4) Other devices are not active during the scan . They are not connected with power also not with computer. = no change
5) Scandig suggest to blow with compressed air in de scanner. I do not dare....
My last try is now to install the scanner on another computer in a different place.
Then contact again Scandig if no change.
Thank you already for helping me
Kenneth
I think that it get
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s worse

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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

Hi Kenneth,

as I said, this is most likely a hardware defect. I would send the images to reflecta (service@reflecta.de) or send them a link to this forum page and ask for advice.

Hermann-Josef

PS: Have you been to the VAB on Cape Canaveral?
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

Ken50x
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Registriert: Mittwoch 31. Juli 2019, 14:20

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Ken50x »

Good evening,

Thank you very much for your diagnosis. My scanner is only 7 months old.
I follow your recommendations and keep the forum updated.

Kenneth
PS I was there in 2005. That day the VAB could not be visited.

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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

Good morning Kenneth,
Ken50x hat geschrieben:
Montag 30. März 2020, 22:36
My scanner is only 7 months old.
So it still is in the warranty period, good. Maybe it is just a loose flexible flatband cable. But reflecta would have to fix that so you do not loose your warranty.

Hermann-Josef
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

Ken50x
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Registriert: Mittwoch 31. Juli 2019, 14:20

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Ken50x »

Hello Josef,
He has sent to Reflecta this afternoon.
I keep the forum updated.
Kenneth

Ken50x
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Registriert: Mittwoch 31. Juli 2019, 14:20

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Ken50x »

Hello,

I have got the scanner back after 5 weeks. After 200 scans everything seems good.

Is it normal to get the scanner back without explanation? What have they done?
If your car enters the garage even under warranty, you will be told why.

Thank you again Jossie for your professional help.

Kenneth

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Jossie
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Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Jossie »

Hi Kenneth,

my scanner had to be sent back to reflecta several times. For the first few times I also got it back almost without a comment. Twice it was replaced by a brand new scanner and they told me that. However, at later times (yes, I had to return the scanner quite a few times!) I got back a form, which the technician had filled in with details. It even included a focus check (by specifying the USAF1951 element, which could be separated).

Perhaps you could ask for such a report?

Best wishes

Hermann-Josef
DigitDia6000 (CyberView, SilverFast Archive Suite 8) / CanoScan9950F (ScanGear, VueScan Pro), Eizo CS240, Spider4Elite unter Win10 (64bit), i7 (3.5GHz), Speicher 24GB

Ken50x
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mittwoch 31. Juli 2019, 14:20

Re: Reflecta RPS 10M - Issue ("Staircase Effect"?)

Beitrag von Ken50x »

Hello Jossie,

Excuse me ..... you said..... :"my scanner had to be sent back to reflecta several times."
Is this normal for all filmscanners? Reflecta-Nikon-Imacon?
You are talking over what time? During the waranty ? After how many scans?
I had one Hp flatbed scanners for 10 years and more. The only problem was the change of the operating system Windows 10 . I made several 1000 A4 scans. I have now a new one only because he is several times faster.

I have also checked the focus with the USAF 1951 element and I noticed a difference in focus after the repair. Before 6.1 ( 3251), now 5.6 (2896).

thanks again for your honest answers.

Kenneth

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